Researcher  0:00  
Yeah, that's great. That's an issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. That's helpful. That's, ya know, very, very helpful comments. Thank you. So Well, the first thing I would like to ask you have you improvise with or with people? 

Participant 0:27
Yeah, yeah. I have. Yeah. 

Researcher 0:32
And how would you say that the experience is different?

Participant  0:34  
Well, there's there's this oral way of communicating like, visual, I guess it's just being present, when there's an opportunity for you to say, "Hey, stop", "this is good" or "can you please let me finish this?" And then you go in.

Researcher  1:01  
Do you that verbally, like you say it?

Participant 1:05
Yeah. 

Researcher 1:06
Okay, are there signs?

Participant  1:08  
There are signs, Yeah. But I think it also depends on the on. So that's something that first it's like, the level your, how aligned you are with that person. That's the first thing. And then the second, and that will that will determine how will you communicate. So with some people I am so aligned that, you know, you don't even have to say, and you will just sort of you just you know, with with me, you'll just continue. And you'll ride directly on each other without much saying. Whereas if you're playing with someone, and I think both of you can know, sort of like, there's a mutual feeling when when you're stuck or where this is not going anywhere. 

Researcher  1:55  
It's mainly through music?

Participant  2:00  
It's mainly through the music. And then the next step is pretty much noticing those signs and maybe verbally talking about them. So for example, if you see that someone is stuck, if someone is not playing, then you will either stop. Or you will sort of try it and redirect or give them more opportunity to to continue and then you'll follow. So you're going to switch roles. For example, if I'm doing the main melody and someone is following, if they're stuck, maybe we should do it other way around. So it is like it's, it's it's more like, just seeing it visually, feeling it musically, and then maybe taking it verbally.

Researcher  2:39  
Okay, so when you say seeing visually is because you are looking at the person and maybe how their face or?

Participant 2:50
Yeah, yeah. 

Researcher 2:52
And perceiving the way they're feeling? 

Participant  2:54  
Yeah, but again, like it's not the same. I think it's also on the level of how connected you are with the person as well. Not Yeah, definitely music wise, but it's also just how close you are with someone.

Researcher  3:09  
So that connection would be something like because it's a person that you know, for some time and you have played with before?

Participant  3:17  
Yeah, like, I think improvisation they're sort of two levels. I don't know, I'm thinking out loud.

Researcher  3:24  
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what we need,

Participant  3:26  
I feel that it's very, it can be very intimate. So if you're close with the person, because like, when you're improvising when you're jamming, like if you're not, you know, if you're not a professional musician, in a way, I think, and I don't consider myself a professional musician. Like, you know, whatever I'm playing, it's sort of like me, me exposed, exposing my work in progress. And that's not, you know, that's like, vulnerable in a way, right? Yeah, it's your, it's personal. So if you're not close, if you if you don't have that trust, maybe you're going to have a blockage, you know, you're not going to be able to so it's so it's like, if if the person you're playing with, if you already have a connection like it, it could yield some really good stuff. Okay. But on the other hand, if you're a professional musician, and if you if you're able to just sort of like, okay, I'm just gonna play some do some really good harmonies and things like that. I don't think it necessarily is vulnerable, you know? So I guess. Yeah, so I don't think yeah, I don't think it's necessary to see visually for me, yes. Because that's the only way I've experienced it. Okay, I can actually communicate, it's important for me, but I don't think it's the only way to go.

Researcher  4:44  
Okay, now that sounds that sounds good. Yeah. And I mean, one thing that I have that I saw in your comments is you mentioned a lot about being able to have control of the system. 

Participant 4:55
Yeah. 

Researcher 4:59
When you are improvising with people Do you have that control? You feel?

Participant  5:03  
Yeah, I guess. Maybe it's the wrong word. No, maybe it's not. I don't have full control. When I'm improvising like, I, I do, because someone, someone else will go with the line, baseline, that you like and it's not in the same note, and the key, and then you're gonna switch what you're saying. But I feel like I at least have control of what I'm playing. Whereas when I was playing with the AI, I felt like, um, you know, I could just, it's just better for me to play alone, because I don't, we're listening to each other. So I guess, control, control over what I'm playing more than what they're playing.

Researcher  5:52  
Yeah. So you didn't feel the AI was listening. 

Participant  5:56  
Yeah, I was confused. I was trying. That's why I, I couldn't progress. I fell like it's just, and then I stopped, and then I was listening to what the AI was giving me. And I just couldn't see how this relates to what I started because I started really slow. And like two, three notes. And then it like, went whoa, like, all and I was like, what? Which is also like, it's a new idea. But yeah, I guess? Yeah. I don't know if I gave you the answer.

Researcher  6:29  
I understand. So in some way, when you are with people, you can direct?

Participant  6:37  
Yeah, you can least say 'I like this', 'I don't like this', or you can show it. I couldn't do that with the AI.

Researcher  6:43  
So would you have liked to be able to communicate something like, 'I don't like this'?

Participant  6:47  
Yeah, exactly. And it's not, I get it, like the improvisation should bring more ideas, not not not just my ideas, right. So that's the whole point of improvisation with other people. But it's more just, we can improvise forever. When I want some results, I don't want to just jam all the time I want to be able to say, 'Okay, stop. This is good', 'Let's continue on this, let's just let's just try to involve this idea rather than the other idea'. So that's control for me.

Researcher  7:22  
Thinking of the of the AI, can you imagine a way in which you could interact with it, in a way which, like, any mechanisms in particular that you could use that it will be good for you to be able to communicate with it? This kinds of things?

Participant  7:41  
Yeah, I think, I don't know, just just first thought was that I do miss the visual, some sort of visual cue. I know, there was a graph, I don't know, if it's the, it doesn't matter, but just something to where I can look at. That's first. And then the second thing is also, that same thing, you know, I'm just like imagining in Ableton you have this line, when you play in your MIDI, or whatever you're playing, you can you see all the notes you've played. And then you can play with them. And I was thinking, oh, you know, for example, I want to sit down now listen to the track, I want to play, I want to press stop, and pause and then say, 'Oh, this was a good part', or 'I don't like these notes'. So it's more just maybe, like, I'm imagining it as a, you know, visual graph with notes or something like that, that I can actually interact with. And I think it's actually easy for me to interact, just say, 'okay, pause', 'Oh, this was a good sound, pause', 'delete this shit', 'I want to focus on this', and then maybe I can press a loop this so I can actually do something really.

Researcher  9:07  
Okay.

Participant 9:10
Thats a lot of control.

Researcher 9:12
Yeah, I was gonna say, that's a lot of control, precisely. So if you think about it more as a partner, rather than as a tool, because I feel like the description that you're saying is a tool, right? Something like Ableton. If you think of it more as a partner, like with a person you cannot just delete parts.

Participant  9:40 
I'm definitely in control, I don't know about that. 
If I think about it as a partner, I think. I just don't see how. The other thing that crosses my mind is like for the AI to tell me 'no, we should like continue with it, this is good'. Okay, how will they like that? That's another way, like, to convince me that this is the way to go, this is okay. So this is something that I want to take lead on, and I will follow. But it didn't offer me that. I guess I need just more space, room,  more time to sort of listen to what the AI is offering me. 

Researcher  10:21  
When you mean more time is that more time interacting with it? 

Participant  10:25  
No, I think. That's what I wrote in the notes, because I'm not sure that I want the AI to stop playing, but I feel like, it's just giving me random notes. And I cannot make sense of that. So that's why I think I'm like, okay, you know, I'm not what you say, you know, I guess, if I could pause and play certain parts, I could say, 'oh, this was a good idea', and then telling them, 'you should evolve this', you know, telling the system, 'can you evolve this?' And for me, that's partnering. So I'm not gonna, you know, just take what the AI is offering, but I'm just more at this stage, it didn't offer me something cohesive, it was just very random. So that's why my first thought is, okay, I'll just grab a couple of notes that you gave me as an idea and I'll evolve them. But I would love to have other way around. But I don't know if that's possible.

Researcher  11:28  
Do you think that also having a visualisation, still with this random kind of behaviour, but having a visualisation or something would make it better?

Participant  11:42  
Yeah, I think it's gonna even be more embodied in a way. Like have more corpus. Okay. I don't know, you know, how, maybe it's too artsy, to think about in a way to have a specific visualisation. But that will be great. Yeah, because I feel that then, I would think of AI as having a character as well. It will be more close to me.

Researcher  12:11  
So you want to give it a persona? 

Participant  12:17  
Just something that's distinguish, distinctive, express, I think the expressive is a word that I'm, yeah. Because it just sounds like random notes at the stage. Without, yeah, and it's, and yeah, it's just very, and I wouldn't mind anything having a random notes, but it's just like, note after note, and I already forgot the first note and like, where are we now? What is? So yeah.

Researcher2  12:52  
What do you imagine in that visualisation? Are you picturing anything in particular, that could be something that helps with that embodiment?

Participant  12:59  
I think I was just like, thinking of even just some like visuals such as. You know how before we had those Windows Media Player, had those visualisation, like, when you would play music or winamp. You know, so I am thinking something that's sort of generic, but it's also, you know, it expands or, you know, it just sort of follows the size of the music or the note, or the tempo or the dynamic. I wouldn't go with something like just a graph. I would go with something more expressive. I don't know, just something that, you know, because I really felt at the beginning that at some stages the AI went really crazy and I think it would excite me even more if I would see that visually as well, like, oh my god, okay. Maybe I should focus on that when when, like, I don't know.

Researcher  14:11  
So in some way you will be kind of playing the visualisation, like, evolving that visualisation?

Participant  14:20  
On, no, not necessarily. I think it will be an indicator for me to sort of think. To convince me that the AI always really hooked up on these notes, this is really something that excites the system, I should follow that. Rather than, I don't want to control the visualisation it's just yeah, I think it will potentially convince me more to say, 'oh, okay, so the AI actually knows what it's doing', maybe I should just try and follow and partner up instead of just okay, pause and use it as a tool.

Researcher2  15:05  
Do you think it was following you during the performance? 

Participant  15:11  
No, I don't think so. I think, no. I tried to figure that out, but I just felt like it was in, you know, in another session.

Researcher  15:27  
Thank you so much for your help.
